Brands, particularly the marketing teams behind them, talk at great length about their consumers. They slice them into demographics, rank them based on lifetime value, measure them with things like Net Promoter score. Yet behind all of these things is an important truth: consumers are human beings, and can sometimes be unpredictable.
Tema Frank, author of the new book PeopleShock, has been studying people for many years. One of her early businesses was studying how individuals interact with websites – a discipline known as web usability – and counseled companies on how to better optimize their web experiences.
Her newest book explores the broader discipline of customer experience from a much broader perspective, beyond just websites. It’s an outstanding book, and I’d encourage you to go check it out. It’s a worthwhile read and filled with great stories.
- Why the experience a customer has at your business matters to your bottom line
- How you can fix problems with your customer experience that help you improve returns
- Why ‘grand gestures’ are increasingly being replaced by an emphasis on day-to-day customer interactions
- Explore Tema’s 3Ps – Promise + People + Process = Profit
You can listen to the episode now, or read the full transcript below!
Tema’s Top Piece of Marketing Advice
Get out there and talk to people who are of the type that you want to have be your customers and find out what’s really important to them.
Daniel: Hi everyone. Welcome to this episode of the ManipuRATED podcast. I am your host, Daniel Lemin, and this is a very special episode of the podcast. In part, because I believe it is episode number 11 and, for that reason, it is a special episode. Why is the number 11 special? I’m not really sure, but it sounds like a good number. It’s one of my favorite numbers, lucky number 11.
And the other thing that makes this episode a little bit unique is today’s guest is actually, in addition to being a business owner, she is a fellow author. If you’ve read my book, ManipuRATED, all about online ratings and reviews, you will very likely want to pick up a copy of her book when it comes out in May. A very good book about a very similar topic, ratings, reviews, but more importantly really about customer experience and the importance of all of the things that come with the customer experience for your business. So, before we get into that, I want to make sure I go through and really introduce you to Tema.
Tema Frank is a best-selling author, an international speaker and consultant. Throughout three decades of experience in business and marketing strategy, website usability, and customer experience, she’s been doing this stuff since about 1991 and actually put up her first website in 1995. So she has been really immersed in the web at a very early, early place. In 2001, she launched a business called Web Mystery Shoppers and that is basically, they send out armies of people to test out websites and tell the business what they think, kind of large, sample size usability testing. And you know, typical projects have anywhere between 30 and 300 people, so these are large-scale projects.
In 2012, she created the Frank Online Marketing Show, which has now become the Frank Reactions Podcast, so she’s a fellow podcaster and talks a lot about customer experience and she does a lot of speaking and teaching and consulting as well. So, then several years back, she was the author of a Canadian best seller called Canada’s Best Employers for Women and her newest book, called People Shock, comes out right around the middle or so of May. So we will get all of the details, including where you can find and order and see all of the stuff in People Shock in just a little bit. But first up, Tema, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining me.
Tema: Thank you so much. I’m thrilled to be here.
Daniel: Great, great. So this is a really interesting topic. I talk about customer experience not only on this podcast, but also in a lot of the work that I do. My book kind of touched on it to some degree because the intersection between what people say about a business and the experience they have at the business is airtight and there is a direct correlation there.
Daniel: So, it’s something that we talk a lot about, but I wanted to get your perspective. I mean, you come at this from a slightly different angle. You’ve been working on, sort of website usability and that end of it for many years. So, tell me about your book. What’s kind of the core thesis behind People Shock and why did you decide to write this book now?
Tema: Sure. So, People Shock basically is making the point that as we become more and more automated, which is happening all around us, there are a lot of great things about that, but it also means that the human factor and the ability to serve customers well through human connections one way or another or a blend of human and technology becomes more and more important. So, what’s been happening, thanks to the internet, is competition in almost every type of business now is global, potentially global. You can’t compete on price anymore. That won’t last for very long before you’d go bankrupt. It’s just too difficult. Even innovation is one of those things that, you can’t rely on having a steady stream of new innovative products that are going to be hits.
So ultimately customer experience becomes the only sustainable competitive advantage, and to deliver that, I believe, you need to look at what I call the three Ps of promise, people and process. So, what happens is a lot of companies get some of it right, but then they fall down, for instance, on how they’re treating their people or on the process elements of delivering customer service.
So, those are all important and really, I guess what inspired it, there were sort of a whole bunch of different things in my life. My first career really was in banking and I saw the enormous disconnects between the back office and management staff versus what was going on on the front lines. So, that got me thinking about customer experience and why is it so important to give great customer experiences but also why is it also so hard to do.
Then, a few years later, as you mentioned, I wrote the book, Canada’s Best Employers for Women, where I was kind of looking at the human resources side of things and the importance of employee engagement. And the short conclusion of that book was the best for women are great for men too because they really focus on people. Unfortunately the reverse is not always true. There were some where men thrived and women really weren’t given opportunities, but that’s a whole other podcast.
And then the final element that really led me to this was just this increasing interest in automation. I mean, we’re at a stage now where companies like Accenture have laid off tens of thousands of staff and replaced them with what they call virtual robots. And I’m not against that. I think there are really valuable things that can be done better by technology than by people, but you still fundamentally need that human connection to succeed.
Daniel: Yeah. There are some days when I’m working, doing stuff that I find particularly tedious, that I feel like a virtual robot, but it’s true. It’s true that that human touch can get kind of lost a little bit. I actually just read an interesting study last week or maybe the week before, kind of connecting the dots on your first book, which was about best employers for women. And what the study found was that businesses with low ratings, low ratings and reviews, whether that might be on Yelp or some other site, Angie’s List, whatever might be relevant to the business, if they had a low rating, it actually cost them more money to employ people.
I think it was about a 10% penalty that they take for not being a place that people want to shop at. That makes people not want to work there too and I think it really reflects the sometimes duplicitous nature of business. Like, “We need you to believe what we say about ourselves, not what you experience, and what we say about ourselves is our brand, not what you experience.” And that’s going away, right?
Tema: Yeah. The reality is the brand is what people experience, and so if you are not being consistent with that brand, with what I call the promise, if you’re not being consistent in your behavior, your brand’s shot. It’s pointless.
Daniel: And why do you think that’s so hard to do? I mean, being in marketing myself, I sometimes see this and think, “Gosh, it seems like it should be so easy to have a customer experience.” That’s the core, that’s the basis of any business, right, is the customer and the customer experience. Why is that so difficult, particularly for larger brands, to make happen, to operationalize? Why is it so difficult to have good customer experience consistently?
Tema: Well, it’s interesting. Partially it is so difficult because it does revolve around that fuzzy human element and humans are really complicated and we’re really unpredictable. And so managing people in a way and understanding customers in a way that can really provide those experiences consistently is really, really tough. You know, as my trainer says, if it were easy, everybody would be doing it. So, it’s not an easy thing to do. And then, in large organizations, you’ve got the added problems of silos. So, in order to deliver great customer experience, you need to have everything working beautifully in the back end as well as at the front line.
So, you want to make sure that production is running smoothly and high-quality. You want to make sure that billing is happening properly. There are all these different areas within the organization that all need to come together and work together on a common goal of delivering great customer experience. And unfortunately, the way a lot of large companies are structured, people don’t get rewarded on collaboration. They, particularly the more senior ones, they get rewarded on how big is your department, whether you’ve hit some particular abstract numbers that may or may not have anything to do with customer experience.
So, you’ve got internal battles that go on and I think in bigger organizations, that’s one of the biggest hurdles. And then in smaller companies and particularly those that are growing quickly or have grown quickly, sort of the mid-size companies, there often the problem is just things have gone so quickly that they haven’t really had a chance to think through the systems and to assess what they’re doing and come up with structures. So, I find mid-size businesses really exciting because there’s so much potential there, but if they don’t get it right, they pretty quickly slide back to being small or gone. So that’s, I guess, why I think it’s so difficult.
Daniel: Yeah. I think it’s easy for any business to deliver an exceptional experience, but to do it consistently, that’s actually really tough.
Daniel: That’s really tough. I always love the case studies of WestJet in Canada. It’s I think the number two Canadian carrier and they seem to be a great carrier; I’ve flown on WestJet myself. They are a good, they are definitely a good carrier.
Tema: Yeah, I fly them most of the time.
Daniel: Yeah, but every year, right at the holidays, they do that really special, cool, very viral video-type thing. It’s always all over YouTube and they throw some crazy big Santa Claus event and wow everyone with gifts at the baggage claim.
So, the last one I saw, I think the people were flying to the Caribbean or something and they did Santa Claus at the departure gate and said, “You know what? What’s on your list this year?” and then raced out and bought all of those things and had them show up at baggage claim magically when they got to the destination. And that’s certainly a magical experience. That has no potential for scale whatsoever.
Tema: Yeah. Well, and they also do some other things that I find really interesting and come back to this relationship between what your staff are experiencing and what your customers are experiencing. So, they did a video a few years ago called The Father’s Day Surprise and it was a profile of a family where they had a son who was undergoing extensive medical treatment, a toddler. And so, the father lived in Saskatchewan, I think. The mother had to come to Edmonton in Alberta, so a province over, to be with the kid while he was undergoing months of treatment. And the father was a mechanic in a shop of some sort. And what they did is a WestJet employee volunteered, got trained on this guy’s job surreptitiously and then showed up and said, “For Father’s Day, we don’t think you should have to be apart from your son, so this guy’s going to do your job for a week.”
Tema: And it was just so incredibly amazing. I get goosebumps just thinking about it.
Daniel: Yeah. I just got goosebumps.
Tema: Yeah. It’s an amazing video, you should look for it. But that kind of thing is so great because not only does it tell an enormous story about how important people are to them, but it also gives their staff a real sense of pride. And coming back to your point about companies that get badly rated, it’s harder for them to get good employees, well, partially it’s because, you’re getting badly rated if you don’t care about people and that doesn’t matter whether they’re insiders or outsiders. It’s got to be both.
Daniel: Yeah. I have heard this referred to once as the grand gesture, and coming from marketing myself, I can tell you, I can’t actually tell you, I couldn’t count on probably all my fingers and all my toes the number of times I sat around the table trying to come up with that big idea. “What’s the thing that’s going to be so over the top and grand?” And we invest tons and tons and tons into and lots of money to do these things, and that’s great, right? It is heartwarming, some of these ideas, but those are resource-intensive, and to some degree, I wonder if that grand gesture is going to shift to just a consistently good gesture across the board. When you were doing your research for the book, did you get any kind of a feeling about that from marketing executives and so forth? Are they starting to think about, “How can we just deliver a better experience?” Doesn’t have to be amazing but just good.
Tema: Well, I think the amazing stories are really about marketing more than about anything else, so if you do that grand gesture and it goes viral, you’re getting a lot of free advertising out of it. So, it’s not a bad thing, but you’re quite right. When you consider the amount of resources that a lot of those can take, it would be much better invested in just making sure that they are consistently doing things well.
And I think that companies are realizing that, but there is, again, we’ve come back to these internal silos, right? There is a pull between marketing wanting to do something splashy and the rest of the organization struggling to do good things consistently and so, who’s going to get the money and how do you run it? It requires a much more concerted, internal effort to do the right things well all the time, but in the long run, that’s going to pay off a lot better.
Daniel: No, for sure, for sure. When you were talking to, I think I read somewhere that you interviewed, was it 150 different executives for your book? So, the sample size is, it’s not nothing, 150, 150 interviews is a lot. What were some of the things that you saw, kind of the threads that wove through? Is that where you drew your three Ps, that people, process, and promise, that sort of model? Did that come from those interviews or what did you see when you were…
Tema: I think it largely did come from those interviews and I guess what I saw in terms of companies that are managing to do it right, and this can be kind of depressing news, depending on where you are in your organization, but really, those who succeed are those who have top-level commitment. So, I’m not saying go cry in a corner if your CEO isn’t behind you, but it’s going to be a lot harder.
Almost all of the really great examples come from companies where the CEO had a moment of inspiration, if they hadn’t actually founded the company that way, something happened that made them realize, “Hang on a minute, we’ve got to change the way we’re doing things and we’ve got to be focused on people. And in order to focus on people, we have to have a promise that inspires our internal people and the external people and we have to make sure that our process are smooth and constantly reviewed and constantly working.” So the promise, people, and process all actually feed on one another. And that really did come out of those interviews, absolutely.
Daniel: Maybe there’s a third P here too, which is “profit.”
Tema: Well, yeah, I actually call it “the three P profit formula.” So, what I say is promise plus people plus process equals profit and it’s a bit of a tongue twister, but absolutely. And there is a lot of data that shows that investing in better customer experience yields a very positive return on investment. And that’s what drives me crazy is when I speak to so many senior executives who say, “Well, yeah, that’s all good, but it’s expensive and we don’t really have the budget for it and it’s just not important enough.” That is so short-sighted because, yeah, you might be able to hit your quarter numbers a little bit better if you don’t invest in these things, but in the long run, you’ll be gone.
Daniel: Yeah, to some degree, it kind of feels like the three Ps maybe replace the original 5 Ps of marketing, the famous, see if I get these right, product, place, promotion, price, and profit. I think those were the five Ps.
Tema: Okay, I know there’s the 4 Ps, but the profit was implied, so, yeah.
Daniel: And not that product doesn’t matter, not that price doesn’t matter, price matters, of course. But to some degree, people are maybe willing to pay a bit more for a better product and a better experience. We see it all the time with, in the U.S., Chipotle, which is a little bit more expensive, but a little bit better.
Tema: Or Starbucks, even.
Daniel: Yeah. Good point.
Tema: Yeah. Yeah, and you have to decide what your segment is that you’re going after. What is your customer segment and actually one of the interesting pieces of research that I came across in a few different ways, most powerfully, I don’t know if you’ve come across the book Tilt, by Niraj Dawar. And he makes the argument in there that instead of competing, we used to have product managers in big companies. Really we should have segment managers. We’re looking at who’s the customer segment that we’re going after and what are the ways we can serve them that will be meaningful and useful to them.
And one of the points that he makes in there is you get to choose what dimension you want to compete on. So, I think excellent service underlies it all, but how you define excellent service will change, depending on where you set your target. So, if you’re Volvo, people associate that company with safety. Well, before Volvo started making safety a criteria in car decision-making, it was nowhere. I mean, it created that category. So, you can create a category, but fundamentally, if you do that, you’ve got to deliver on it really well, and no matter what the category is, part of delivering on it really well is making sure that the customer experience is there.
Daniel: Yeah. I had an interesting experience some years back. I had to put a new roof on my house, and at the time, I was living in a very, an old, very delicate, kind of Victorian home, not just a typical, rip the roof off and put a new one on kind of situation. It had some nuance, so it was definitely a process, interviewing contractors and trying to find the right one.
And the guy we ended up choosing, he was very forthcoming. He was not the cheapest, by a long shot. He wasn’t the most expensive. He was kind of somewhere in the upper middle. But what he said was, “Look, number one, I pay my guys well and I take care of them. They’ll be the best people you ever worked with, best crew you’ll ever work with. You won’t even know we’re here most of the time. We’ll leave it in better shape than we found it, but I’m not going to be the cheapest person who gives you a bid and I’m not flexible on it. So, when you get the bid, if it’s not something that works for you, that’s really my best option for you.”
Daniel: And he just gave such a sense of assurance, and indeed, his crew was so exceptional. They were such good guys, they showed up, they were clean, they left it in much better shape than they found it in. It really made me realize it’s sometimes worth paying a little but more, but in his case, it was all about his employees. He takes just really, really good care of his employees and it shows. There’s a lot of respect for him. When he’d show up on the job site, it wasn’t like, “Oh God, the boss is here.” It really kind of manifested, so he kind of invested in people, definitely. And that really showed and that story always stuck with me, along with the very large bill it came with.
Tema: But you felt ultimately that that bill was worth it, right?
Daniel: It was worth it, it was worth it.
Tema: You were happy.
Daniel: It was definitely a better product. Actually the same product but better execution, but you just felt better about doing business with them.
Tema: Well, and the nice thing is, coming back to the regular theme of your show, is that thanks to online ratings and reviews, it’s easier now for you to share that experience with others and for others to find him and choose his service. Whereas it used to be how many people on any given day would you know who are looking for a roof repair guy? But if you can post on Yelp or whatever, on Angie’s list or any of these things, talking about why that was such a great experience, that’s a real bonus to him. And I mean, I know there are lots of problems with online reviews and ratings, but having a genuine review like that makes a huge difference.
Daniel: Well, I mean, talk about business strategies. So this guy’s name is Mike Longmore. If go out and Google Mike Longmore at Longmore Construction, you will not find him.
Daniel: He doesn’t have a website. He’s not really in any database, he’s not on Angie’s list. He actively removes himself from these different places. All of, 100% of his business is based on referral. If it’s not a referral, he won’t take the job.
Daniel: And reason he said that is, “I don’t want random business. I want business from people who love me. And I don’t need all the business in the world. I don’t necessarily need that. I’m just trying to keep my business the way it is.” So, he actually and very actively removes himself from these different sites where I think a lot of businesses would be like, “Can I read a whole book about how you do that? Because I would love to do that.” Charge more, take myself off of ratings and review platforms and stay busy.
Tema: And in some businesses, that’s quite doable and especially if his goal is not to run an empire, right?
Tema: Content with the size that his business is at. My personal trainer, same thing. He’s got a very busy business; it’s all based on referrals and he picks and chooses which clients he wants to work with. If he doesn’t have fun with you, then he’ll find someone else. That’s a great [inaudible 00:24:46].
Daniel: That is an enviable position.
Daniel: That is an enviable position.
Tema: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But I think often, entrepreneurs especially, we get into this treadmill of thinking we’ve always got to get another client, got to get another client, instead of just stopping to think, “Okay, am I enjoying working with these people? And am I able to give them my very best?” And if I’m not, well, get rid of the ones you’re not enjoying and raise your prices if you’re really delivering outstanding service.
Ultimately eventually you get to a point where you can do that. And the nice thing is there’s a price signaling effect; you know that from your marketing background. So, if you come in with the lowest prices, people aren’t likely to expect that they’re going to get great service and you’re going to get people who want something cheap and they’re going to…that may conflict with your values as a provider.
Daniel: Yeah, I’ve definitely learned that lesson myself over the years as a marketing consultant. I’ve taken on projects maybe I shouldn’t have taken on, and because of that, I don’t necessarily know how to price them, maybe I underpriced them, and it turns out to be something I probably never had any business doing in the first place, but I wanted to do it. I thought I needed a client at the time. So I’ve been, I could probably be accused of that myself over the years.
Tema: Oh, I’m sure we all have. It’s not just you.
Daniel: Yeah, particularly young, when I was early in my consulting career, my gosh, I felt like I was knocking on doors all the time.
Tema: Right. And you don’t want to keep doing that.
Tema: And that’s fair enough. You’ve got to pay the bills, right? But what you want to be doing is as your credibility is building, you start weeding out that list so that you’re doing more and more that’s what you want to be doing and do well and getting rid of the stuff that’s not in that category.
Daniel: But it really sounds like…there’s an interesting dynamic. I think that a lot of large brands have a lot to learn from what small and medium businesses are doing successfully right now. I think even seeing in some of my own client interactions large brands kind of looking at the middle-size players in their market and saying, “Gosh, how do we be more like them? We’re too not like that. We’re big and we’re like a monolith and we need to not be that.”
Tema: Yeah, and it’s tough. It is a really, really tough thing for large organizations to do.
Tema: And so, I’ve spoken to many banks, for instance, big global banks, who really want to become those that provide outstanding, consistent customer service, but it’s hard to do when you’re that large. It’s worth trying and chipping away at it in one area at a time or one bit at a time, but you’re not going to turn the Titanic overnight and realistically unfortunately, in a lot of big companies, they’ll get partway down a path towards change and then leadership will change or something else will happen and then the priorities switch. And that, of course, also then leads to employee disenchantment. So, it means if you really want to make radical change in place they go, “That’s flavor of the month,” right? So, it’s hard to get the buy-in.
Tema: Not impossible, but hard.
Daniel: Here comes another change that’s rolling down the hill.
Tema: Yeah, exactly.
Daniel: Yep. Well, I want to make sure we talk about your book, People Shock, a little bit more, but before we do that, there is one question I always ask guests. I don’t know if you’ve listened to podcast episodes; at the end or toward the end, I always ask this sometimes complex question. It’s actually two questions in one. What is the number one piece of marketing advice that you would give a business owner if he was just getting started? They’re just kind of launching a new business. What’s the one thing you would say to them, “Make sure you do that well?”
Tema: I would say make sure you get out there and talk to people who are of the type that you want to have be your customers and find out what’s really important to them. That is the most important thing, I think.
Daniel: Do that right, and everything else is easier.
Tema: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Daniel: So, set the ground.
Tema: Yeah, sure. Really understand them. Really understand what drives them, what frustrates them and how would your offering fit in there. How can you help them? Because fundamentally people aren’t going to keep on buying something that doesn’t help.
Tema: So that would be it. It’s pretty straightforward, but again, it’s often overlooked. I meet so many entrepreneurs who come up with a great idea for a product and it turns out there’s no interest in it. And in a way, honestly Mystery Shoppers was a bit like that at the beginning. As I say, given the name of the company, I thought that my clients were going to be retailers because I thought it was obvious that retailers needed to have a good online experience. But this was back in 2001, and at that stage, they figured they were doing well just to have a website up. They didn’t care if it was usable or not.
So, I hadn’t really listened or believed what I was hearing and I guess that’s part of it too. And I was misled a little bit because my first client was a large bank and I had not intended to sell them on the service at all. It was still, at that point, just an idea and I managed to convince an executive to let me buy him lunch and I said, “Look, I’ve got this idea and I just wanted to know what you think, if you think it would fly,” and I honestly had no intention of selling to him in that meeting. And he said, “Oh, this is really exciting, when can we start?” So, that gave me this deluded impression that this was a no-brainer and that everyone was going to buy into it. Wrong.
Daniel: Well, like all good entrepreneurs, we fall in love with not so much the solution, but the problem. And that’s good, it keeps us going. Sometimes being solution-minded is a good way to look at the world too. But it’s definitely good advice for any business, know what your customers care to buy and what matters to them.
So, let’s talk a little bit about People Shock. It’s coming out soon, right? It’ll be in middle of May?
Tema: Yep. It’s coming out in May. The exact date is not 100% certain but people can go to PeopleShock.com and regardless of when this is listed, either they can buy it directly through there or they will be able to find a link there if it’s not quite on sale yet, just to get on the insider’s list, so they’ll get a free chapter and they get notified when the book is actually available. And I’ll have an offer as well, just that if people pre-order the book and then send me the receipt, even if the physical copy of the book isn’t available yet, I’ll send them the electronic version right away once that’s ready.
Daniel: I will put in a little plug here. So, I’ve read the first few chapters that you had shared with me and I will say it is meaty, good thinking. There’s a lot of really, really good stuff. Whether you are a small business or happen to be a large business, there is something in this book, I think, for everyone. There’s a lot of very, very valuable lessons and insights and I definitely think everyone should check it out. You can get this free sample stuff right on the People Shock website right now.
Tema: Thank you so much for saying that. I really appreciate that. It’s one of those things. When you write a book, you sit there in your office, banging away at the keyboard, and you sometimes wonder, “Hmm, is this really obvious to everybody?” or, “Is it going to interest people?” so it’s always nice to hear feedback like that. Thank you.
Daniel: Yeah, actually one of my favorite books, I tell this story sometimes, it was given to me about 18, 19 years ago, when I was just getting started in my career. Someone, I had met with a bunch of PR agencies in New York trying to fish for a job, and one of the PR agency principals at Hill and Knowlton, big agency, gave me a copy of this tiny, thin little book called, Obvious Adams. I don’t know if…
Tema: Oh, I don’t know that one.
Daniel: It’s an out-of-print book from, like, the 30s. And it’s just a story about the New York ad world in the 30s, 40s, or maybe the 60s, I don’t really remember. It’s a little tiny book. I have a copy of it on my bookshelf here, but it’s all about kind of doing the obvious things and always using that as your metric, the most obvious answer. And we know that and science has different words to reflect that, but I think that in many cases, as you were just saying, you think, “Gosh, everyone knows this, right? Am I saying something that everyone already knows?”
And the act of doing that is actually insightful itself. You think everyone knows these things and yet, not everyone does, and I think that’s what makes a good book good. It’s not dense, it’s stuff that everyone can relate to.
Tema: Yep, yeah, and I certainly hope people can and that’s also why I’ve included in there a lot of case studies and I’ve included action steps and things to try and make it more actionable, I guess. There’s a closet academic in me that when I was writing this, part of me really struggled and said, “Well, I’ve got to make sure that this is academically valid,” and then there’s the pragmatist in me that said, “But I really want people to read this and do something with it.” So, that side went out.
Daniel: Yeah. I mean, it’s kind of Occam’s razor. The most obvious thing is probably the right answer, is probably the correct answer.
Tema: Oh, absolutely. So my favorite little skinny book that I got long, long ago is useful to marketers as well. It’s a book by Strunk and White.
Daniel: Oh, yes.
Tema: Yeah, you know that?
Tema: Oh, now I’m blanking on what the name of it was.
Daniel: Strunk and White, yes.
Tema: Yeah, well, Strunk and White are the authors, but it’s a guide to writing and it was such a great book. I remember the best message from it, which was, “Omit needless words.”
Daniel: The Elements of Style.
Tema: That’s it! Yes.
Daniel: I just glanced over at my bookshelf here and I’ve got a copy of that.
Tema: Yeah, and I was turning to look at mine, but yeah.
Daniel: It’s sitting right next to my two copies of Obvious Adams, funny enough. There they sit. There they sit. Because they’re the same size. I’ve got all my bookshelf all organized.
Tema: By size.
Daniel: Nice and neat. Yes. Great, so listeners, if you’re looking for stuff on the book, PeopleShock.com is where you can find it. That’s spelled just like it sounds. Tema, if they’re looking for you, they want to reach out and find you on social media, how can they do that?
Tema: That’s easy to do. I’m on Twitter, it’s simply @TemaFrank and that’s T-E-M, as in “marketing,” A-F-R-A-N-K. I’m available through LinkedIn, they can e-mail me, just Tema@FrankReactions, and if I put in another little plug here, they might be interested also in the Frank Reactions podcast, which focuses on customer experience and you can find that on iTunes or whatever. And visit, also, the blog. You can reach me through that as well and that’s just FrankReactions.com.
Daniel: Very good. Tema Frank, thank you so much for being a guest today, this has been a lovely conversation. I think listeners have hopefully taken away a lot of good insights, will check out People Shock and keep this conversation going.
Tema: Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure to be here.
Daniel: This has been the latest episode of the ManipuRATED podcast. If you’re looking to check out the other episodes, you can find them on ManipuRATED.com/podcast or wherever you choose to consume podcast episodes. Thanks for listening. See you next time.